Posts by Disillusioned JW

156

Remembering Rutherford

by Sea Breeze in

he seems to me to be the angriest and most ill-tempered of all the wt presidents, especially after his stint in prison and failed prophecies.. “regarding his misguided statements as to what we could expect in 1925, he [rutherford] once confessed to us at bethel, “i made an ass of myself.”” watchtower 1984 oct 1 p.24.

rutherford died at beth sarim on january 8, 1942, at the age of 72.

[220] cause of death was...carcinoma of the rectum..."[21] .

Disillusioned JW

In my post in which I quoted the Children book I neglected to actually quote what the book said about college and other higher education.

Ch. 1 of the book in talking about the fictional characters (before they learn of the WT books) regarding their education says: "John Alden had reached the age of sixteen years. Eunice Rogers was fourteen years of age. Both had completed the study course in the country public school. They must receive further education. John was sent away to college. Eunice entered a seminary for young ladies. A four-year course of study had been planned for each one of them." That is interesting that they are said to go to advanced schooling at such young ages. Later in the chapter the book describes the characters experience of their higher learning and portrays it in a negative light (at least from the JW point of view).

Note it says the following.

"Eunice, ... For four years you have been closely associated with those who are given over to the lighter things of life. We both can well bear testimony to the fact that the schools for both men and women instill into the mind of the pupil the theory of evolution of the human race, substituting that tradition proclaimed by such men as Darwin for the sure Word of Almighty God. You have withstood that seductive influence and have disregarded the sneers and reproaches that have fallen upon you and to which all persons who manifest their belief in the inspired Scriptures are subjected. I noted at the study this morning that you still firmly hold to the early teachings we have received from our parents in our homes. You have withstood the influence

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of the modern educators, who would turn young men and young women away from the early instruction of their parents. Truly, then, you have been and are 'Blessed with victory'.

...

You have told me that you were required to attend religious service while at the seminary; that the congregational meetings, and the Sunday morning service in particular, were a dress parade having the earmarks of a social gathering; that the minister seldom mentioned the Bible and never made any attempt to explain it, but talked chiefly of evolution, politics and social problems, quoting liberally from books of worldly writers, and that the entire tendency was to discredit the Bible. Well do I understand and appreciate what you have told me. A like condition exists at all colleges, I believe. Such were the conditions at the college where I have been attending for the past four years. Almost all of the professors, including the ecclesiastical instructors, are higher critics and rely on science and the wisdom of men to lead them to higher things, but I observe that they do not reach great heights."

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"Yes, John, often have I propounded to myself the question: Why should a man call himself a minister or a doctor of divinity, claiming to be a servant of God, and never attempting even to instruct the people as to the meaning of the Scriptures? Probably it is because he does not understand the Scriptures himself; but he should not pretend to teach them. The minister at the seminary appeared to be quite popular with almost all who attended his church meetings, and the attendants of his social gatherings spoke many flattering words about him and to him; but I must say that often I have felt so out of place at those so-called 'church services and social gatherings' that I have wanted to run away that I might be alone and meditate upon what our parents have taught us in our homes. From what I have learned it appears that the seminaries and colleges have practically forgotten God, and this includes the ministers and theological teachers. As a result of such teaching almost all of the students have become agnostics or infidels."

Later the character John introduces Eunice to Rutherford's book (it appears that the Children book quotes from Rutherford's books extensively and there is an illustration of the two adults reading them). The Children book says the following.

"I would like to devote some of the time during the months that immediately follow to our studies together. I have come into possession of a number of books, all published by the same publishing society, which claim to be of great aid in the study of the Bible. We have both studied the Bible some, but

there is much for us to learn."

Chapter 2 says the following.

'In these latter days the colleges teach evolution concerning man, his creation, and his development, and ignore entirely the Word of God. They are wise in their own conceits, and concerning such the Lord in his Word says: "He taketh the wise in their own craft-

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iness; and the counsel of the froward is carried headlong. They meet with darkness in the daytime, and grope in the noonday as in the night." (Job 5:13,14) "The wise men are ashamed, they are dismayed and taken; lo, they have rejected the word of the Lord; and what wisdom is in them?" — Jeremiah 8:9."These scriptures, written long ago, certainly and accurately describe the conditions that exist in the colleges today," said John to Eunice. "There is scarcely a professor in the college where I attended that has any faith whatsoever in God and the Bible. They teach all the young men and young women to ignore God and the Bible. Recently I noticed in the Literary Digest that a poll had been taken of the preachers in the United States and a large majority of them are evolutionists, deny the inspiration of the Scriptures, and yet claim to be ministers of the gospel."

"Certainly, John," said Eunice. "This proves how wonderfully we have been favored by the Lord in giving us parents who have taught us from our youth up to have confidence in God and in the Bible, which is His Word. Without faith it is impossible to please God, as it is written in the Scriptures."

"That is true, Eunice, and you are a woman of true and genuine faith. Seeing

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that the professors and other teachers in the schools have ignored the Bible and teach that man is a creature of evolution, I suggest that in our next study we give consideration to the Bible teaching concerning the origin of man and the course that men have taken, and learn just why the present miserable conditions exist amongst the peoples and nations of the earth." 'Chapter 9 says the following.

'Generally those of the world who are parents desire to provide their children with a college education and a training in religion, commerce, and politics, with the ability to make money and shine in the world. Good that is enduring does not result from such worldly teaching. It is of far greater importance to the child to teach it God's Word, that it may gain knowledge, wisdom and understanding, which lead to endless blessings: "How much better is it to get wisdom than gold! and to get understanding rather to be chosen than silver!" (Proverbs 16:16) "Receive my instruction, and not silver; and knowledge rather than choice gold. For wisdom is better than rubies; and all the things that may be desired are not to be compared to it." — Proverbs 8:10,11. He who follows the course of religion, politics and commerce usually ends his career in sorrow.'

Chapter 10 says the following.

'Satan knows that his time is short, and therefore he is desperately trying to turn all persons, including the children, against God. (Revelation 12:12,17) Therefore Satan influences public officials and others to compel little children to indulge in idolatrous practices by bowing down to some image or thing, such as saluting flags and hailing men, and which is in direct violation of God's commandment. (Exodus 20:1-5) That is why in the last few years rules are made and enforced in the public schools compelling children of the Jonadabs, who are in a covenant to do God's will, to indulge in the idolatrous practice of flag-saluting and hailing men. It is the influence of that subtle foe, the Devil, that has brought about this state of affairs, and now Satan's agents cause great persecution to be brought upon the parents and the children who insist on obeying the commandments of God.'

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"Resurrection" or "Re-Creation of The Soul"? What do really JW's teach?

by EdenOne in

interesting find through a book "inside story of jehovah's witnesses" (1967) by w.c. stevenson, supposedly a former jw circuit overseer.

it's an interesting "apostate" perspective written prior to the wts 1975 debacle.. anyway, at a certain point, there's a quote from a book called "the four cults", by professor anthony a. hoekema (1963, william b. eerdmans publishing company), a calvinist, which makes some sharp remarks about the way jehovah's witnesses teach the dead coming back to life:.

1) in the case of those "resurrecting" for everlasting life on earth, one asks: if the soul is extinct at death, and the body disintegrates and its components are integrated into other forms of life, what is there to "resurrect"?

Disillusioned JW

The WT and the JWs teach re-creation of the body (with Jehovah God instilling into the new body a copy of the mind of the person who had died). The WT even explicitly says so in at least one of their books.

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The Evidence of Human Evolution keeps getting stronger and stronger

by Disillusioned JW in

despite the wt's and young earth creationists' teachings against human evolution (namely macroevolution from non-humans) being a reality, the evidence of human evolution keeps getting stronger and stronger.. consider for example two science news articles and one other science article, each pertaining to the fossil that is nicknamed "little foot".

below are links to three science articles, listed in order of the articles from oldest to newest (except i don't see a date for one of the articles).

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2187639-exclusive-controversial-skeleton-may-be-a-new-species-of-early-human/.

Disillusioned JW

Thanks redvip2000. Based upon your information I did some checking and I found the web page of http://blog.rongarret.info/2020/05/a-review-of-john-sanfords-genetic.html and the one at https://letterstocreationists.wordpress.com/gen_entropy/ . It is worth reading.

I would like know though where I can see Sanford's book debated point by point on numerous points, rather than just for the points mentioned in the articles which which the above links to them. redvip2000 what source do you have for that?

It is disappointing that in the USA so many adult humans still are convinced of non-evolutionary creationism (primarily young Earth creationism). A huge part of that is due to the influence of superstitions heavily taught by some religions (such as fundamentalist Christianity). The USA is advanced in many ways, but when it comes to the considerable percentage of the USA adult human population which reject macroevolution, the USA is sadly very backward. Outdated religious teachings have too strong of a hold on much of the human population of the USA.

Regarding polling numbers on this topic, what https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/how-many-creationists-are-there-in-america/ says is interesting. One of the things it points out is the effect of the wording of questions upon the polling results. It indicates that a higher percentage of the population consider evolution to true, than what most polls about the topic reveal. It is that is true, then that is encouraging to me regarding the percentage of the population which considers evolution a fact.

The blog article says the following.

"These findings are in keeping with arguments by sociologists of religion that highly religious Americans may feel conflicted about saying humans have evolved, unless they are able to clarify that they also believe God had a hand in the development of life. Indeed, the subset of people who respond differently to the two survey approaches consists mainly of those who believe that God or a higher power played a role in human evolution. For example, nearly all white evangelical Protestants who say humans have evolved—whether in a branched-choice or single-question format—also say God had a role in human evolution.

...

Considered together, the experiments illustrate the importance of testing multiple ways of asking about evolution. For some people, views about the origins and development of human life are bound up with deeply held religious beliefs. Pew Research Center’s goal in designing questions on this topic is to allow respondents to share their thoughts about both the scientific theory of evolution and whether God played a role in the creation and development of life on Earth—and to do so in a way that does not force respondents to choose between science and religion. Indeed, the data show that a sizable share of Americans believe both that life on Earth has evolved over time and that God played some role in the evolutionary process."

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The Evidence of Human Evolution keeps getting stronger and stronger

by Disillusioned JW in

despite the wt's and young earth creationists' teachings against human evolution (namely macroevolution from non-humans) being a reality, the evidence of human evolution keeps getting stronger and stronger.. consider for example two science news articles and one other science article, each pertaining to the fossil that is nicknamed "little foot".

below are links to three science articles, listed in order of the articles from oldest to newest (except i don't see a date for one of the articles).

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2187639-exclusive-controversial-skeleton-may-be-a-new-species-of-early-human/.

Disillusioned JW

I regret saying in the above post the following: "(young Earth creationist apologists are known to do such - it is like a game of wack a mole)". That is because it was not relevant in the context I used it in. Also the name of the game is apparently spelled "Whac-A-Mole" instead of wack a mole.

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The Evidence of Human Evolution keeps getting stronger and stronger

by Disillusioned JW in

despite the wt's and young earth creationists' teachings against human evolution (namely macroevolution from non-humans) being a reality, the evidence of human evolution keeps getting stronger and stronger.. consider for example two science news articles and one other science article, each pertaining to the fossil that is nicknamed "little foot".

below are links to three science articles, listed in order of the articles from oldest to newest (except i don't see a date for one of the articles).

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2187639-exclusive-controversial-skeleton-may-be-a-new-species-of-early-human/.

Disillusioned JW

Readers,

I am impressed that Little Foot's legs were longer than her arms, in contrast to those of Lucy. I am also impressed that Little Foot's species was a better walker than a number of Australopithecus species (possibly including Lucy's).

The features of Little Foot relative to those of Lucy do not pose a problem for evolution theory. Scientists, to my knowledge, are not claiming that Lucy's species evolved from Little Foot's species. Instead of evolving from Little Foot's species, Lucy's species could have evolved from a species which coexisted (for a period of time) with Little Foot's species, or from a species which evolved from a species which had coexisted (for a period of time) with Little Foot's species. Evolution proceeds in multiple directions, and largely as an adaptation to the local environment. In one environment having the anatomy of Lucy could have been more advantageous than having the anatomy of Little Foot. Whereas in a different environment the opposite could have been true. For example, monkeys and chimpanzees are better adapted/suited to living in their tree top environment (and to climbing tree limbs and walking on tree limbs) than humans are of living in the same environment (and to climbing tree limbs and walking on tree limbs), but humans are better adapted/suited to walking on land than are monkeys and chimpanzees.

Though biological evolution started with life which already existed, theories (or hypotheses) of chemical evolution (including abiogenesis) deal with how life could have come into existence from non-life. Considerable progress has been made in learning how that could have happened, though much more needs to be learned. Furthermore, according to evolution theory the first cellular life to exist on planet Earth was very likely far less complex than the simplest cellular life which currently exists on Earth. Biological evolution does deal with (instead of avoiding) the idea of what the earliest type of cellular life on Earth might have been; and it also deals with what precellular types of early life might have been. It does not ignore those issues.

Regarding the idea of irreducible complexity, all proposed examples of such have been disproved by some scientists (though a number of proponents of irreducible complexity disagree with the claim). Evolution can take a biological part that serves one function and then later use if for another function. Later changes in the part can evolve to become better at doing the new function than was originally the case. Regarding the idea of the mousetrap, scientists have shown that if certain parts are removed from the mouse trap the device can serve a different function - one such function is as a spit wad shooter. In fact the device is far better as a spit wad shooter if certain parts are removed from the mouse trap.

I could continue to address each of Sea Breeze's points one by one, but I don't want to take the time to do so, since there other things I want to do with the free time of my life. Likewise if I address each of his/hers current points on this topic, the person will likely bring up more points (young Earth creationist apologists are known to do such - it is like a game of wack a mole). As a result I prefer to refer inquiring open minds to various books which already address the claims made by creationists and proponents of intelligent design. As result, if I refrain from refuting future claims of Sea Breeze pertaining to evolution, that does not necessarily mean I don't know how to refute those claims (nor does it mean I can't find answers which refute those claims).

The following are some books I recommend for inquiring open minds who wish to know what answers scientists have in refutation of the claims of creationists and proponents of intelligent design. They also have scientific explanations in support of chemical evolution and biological evolution. These books are ones which I read (at least in part) to answer my own questions and to see how well abiogenesis and biological evolution stand up to the claims of their critics and to make sure if my conviction of philosophical naturalism is firmly grounded (in regards to the subject of how the various kinds of life came to exist). A number of them also address supposed chicken and egg problems.

- Creation: How Science is Reinventing Itself, by Adam Rutherford

- Why Darwin Matters, by Michael Shermer

- Only A Theory: Evolution and the Battle for America's Soul, by Kenneth R. Miller

- "DECODING The Language Of God: Can A Scientist Really Be A Believer? A Geneticist Responds To Francis Collins", by George C. Cunningham, MD, MPH

- God, the Devil, and Darwin: A Critique of Intelligent Design Theory, by Niall Shanks (see https://oxford.universitypressscholarship.com/view/10.1093/0195161998.001.0001/acprof-9780195161991 )

- "Why Evolution Is True" by Jerry A. Coyne

- "Evolution and the Myth of Creationism: A Basic Guide to the Facts in the Evolution Debate", by Tim M. Berra

There are also other books I read on this topic, and also science magazine articles I read on the topic, but at the moment I don't recall the names of those books and articles.

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More lies from fake news.

by mickbobcat in

news is broadcasting that death valley is getting close to breaking a record.

the highest air temp recorded is 134 but that was in 1913 way before the huge spike in co2.

now its 130 and its the end of the world.

Disillusioned JW

Deserts are known to have high extremes for their low temperature of the day and their high temperature of the day. I think it is due to them having very little vegetation. Vegetation has a moderating effect. Vegetation can provide shade from sunshine and thus cooling, including cooling of the ground. It can also provide cooling when moisture evaporates from the vegetation. At night it can probably help retain some of the heat from the ground, by acting as insulation. Likewise oceans have a moderating effect on the temperature of the air on the shore relative to the air temperature further inland.

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Serious bible students questions about the bible

by TTWSYF in

many jws (and others) are serious about their biblical studies, but don't ask the right questions.

in basic journalism one learns to ask the right questions which in my years here, i've never hear asked.. who, what, where, by what help, by whose help, why, how and when.

these are all basic questions when researching anything that you want to write an article or paper on what ever related subject.. who wrote/created the bible?.

Disillusioned JW

What examples are there of the OT Bible writers making use of the works of Plato and the Iliad? Are you referring to NT Gospel writers?

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Is the Watchtower Organization Playing a Practical Joke on JWs?

by Disillusioned JW in

by a number of its teachings, rules, and practices is the wt organization playing a practical joke on jws?.

Disillusioned JW

The WT magazine could become renamed as "The Watchtower: Announcing the New World Society". It could take up the theme of part of the Golden Age magazines about the world getting better, as shown by the technological improvements and the increase of human rights - or perhaps those themes cold be part of renamed Awake! online magazine.

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Is the Watchtower Organization Playing a Practical Joke on JWs?

by Disillusioned JW in

by a number of its teachings, rules, and practices is the wt organization playing a practical joke on jws?.

Disillusioned JW

asp59 you might be on to something. I disbelieve that the governing body members want to destroy all religion to the point of even destroying the JW religion, but maybe the people directly running the WT corporations want to do such. Maybe the people now running the WT corporations are PIMO and are giving the governing body a figurative rope to figuratively hang themselves and their religion, by allowing the governing body to have so much attention and thus reveal their shortcomings (at least that which non-JWs would consider to be shortcomings).

Having governing body members give speeches in videos is like Rutherford and Russell having their names listed as the authors of their books and WT articles, a practice that was recognized during the Knorr era as being a bad practice for it tended to create a cult following (at least in the case of Russell). We see during the past 10 to years that the WT/JW religion has become much more cult like in its behavior.

It was about 20 years ago that the governing body ceased being a part of the WT corporations. That was done to protect the governing body from lawsuits against the WT and those running the WT. But by so doing the WT corporations now have a degree, at least legally, of independence from the governing body. If the WT will eventually end the JW religion and then transform the WT into an atheistic secular organization which encouraged secular higher education and which taught the public how to obtain fulfilling secular lives that would be great!

Image if in the future a transformed WT (likely with a change in the name of the organization) taught cosmological evolution, chemical evolution, and biological evolution in its literature, instead of intelligent design biblical special creationism. Imagine if it taught how to be successful in business and in other careers in its literature. Such would benefit human society and it would bring new ideas and money into the organization! Imagine if it became a major publisher of atheistic literature and once again took up Rutherford's theme of "religion is a snare and a racket" - but without promoting worship of Jehovah or any other alleged deity. Wow, that would be awesome! If it did that I might would join the remade organization for then it would be the type of organization that I already want to exist (and which I sometimes fantasize of of trying to bring about)!

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Remembering Rutherford

by Sea Breeze in

he seems to me to be the angriest and most ill-tempered of all the wt presidents, especially after his stint in prison and failed prophecies.. “regarding his misguided statements as to what we could expect in 1925, he [rutherford] once confessed to us at bethel, “i made an ass of myself.”” watchtower 1984 oct 1 p.24.

rutherford died at beth sarim on january 8, 1942, at the age of 72.

[220] cause of death was...carcinoma of the rectum..."[21] .

Disillusioned JW

Well though I intended to not make another post about Rutherford's writings in this topic thread, I eventually couldn't resist making this post, regarding what is in Rutherford's last book, the one called Children. Notice what one of the fictional characters say in the last few paragraphs of the last chapter of the book. The following is a quote from those paragraphs, as transcribed at http://www.strictlygenteel.co.uk/children/children12.html .

'Armageddon is surely near, and during that time the Lord will clean off the earth everything that offends and is disagreeable. Then, by His grace, we shall begin our life with a greater vision and prolonged joy. Now we see by faith the great THEOCRACY, and we are wholly and unreservedly committed to that righteous government. From now on we shall have our heart devotion fixed on THE THEOCRACY, knowing that soon we shall journey for ever together in the earth. Our hope is that within a few years our marriage may be consummated and, by the Lord's grace, we shall have sweet children that will be an honor to the Lord. We can well defer our marriage until lasting peace comes to the earth. Now we must add nothing to our burdens, but be free and equipped to serve the Lord. When THE THEOCRACY is in full sway it will not be burdensome to have a family. Then we may often walk through these broad fields, amidst the beautiful forests and environments, and will walk with our beloved children by our side and tell them all we have learned from the Lord,

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and together we shall all be quick to obey our Leader and our King, Christ Jesus."

"I recall, John dear, that your father will be asking you now for your decision as to the future and what you shall do."

"Eunice, my decision is made. I shall shun politics, religion, and commerce, and I shall avoid the cities and the enticements thereof. We are both committed for ever to THE THEOCRACY. Our present duty is plain. We must now be witnesses to the name of Jehovah and to his kingdom. Our place of residence we can continue with our parents as long as it is God's will to have it so, and we shall engage in the service of the Lord by carrying his message of his name and kingdom to others who are hungering for righteousness. We shall, by God's grace, be forever the children of the great King, and our children shall be forever with us, subjects of the Kingdom. We have found refuge in Christ, and we shall abide here until the blessed time when we may have part in fulfilling the divine mandate. We shall not see each other very often for a time, but we can have like thoughts every day of the glorious prospect that is set before us. I suggest that our first thought on awakening each morning be expressed by repeating these words of the psalmist: 'Bless the Lord, 0 my soul: and all that is within me, bless his holy name. Bless the Lord, O

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my soul, and forget not all his benefits.' — Psalm 103:1,2."

To this young man and young woman all the environments now appeared more beautiful. The birds in the trees seemed to be singing the praises of Jehovah and His King. So, hand in hand, they joined their voices with them in song and gave thanks to God for His manifold blessings bestowed upon them.'

Notice that Rutherford, through the fictional characters of his book, a book intended for JW children, very strongly encouraged young JWs to not get married to after lasting peace is obtained after the end of Armageddon! That book is copyright 1941! Imagine how many JW lives were adversely effected by that book. The WT's current adverse attitude towards secular higher education can thus be traced to that book by Rutherford, if not also even further back into the history of the WT.

An ex-JW is reported as saying the following (as stated at https://tonyortega.org/2019/04/09/an-ex-jehovahs-witness-explains-why-the-bottlegate-video-is-so-crucial/ in an article from the year 2019) in regards to this policy (including as proclaimed by Tony Morris).

'For those of you that don’t know about Jehovah’s Witnesses, Tony Morris, as one of the Governing Body members (leaders of the religion) has gained celebrity status due to the JW Broadcasting, their TV network on JW org, where Jehovah’s Witnesses can get constant propaganda piped into the house 24/7.

Anyway, Tony is one of the best GB members at employing very effective guilt tactics to keep the cult members in line. He is on tape in Trinidad telling JWs that if they are not in the field ministry every single week, their hands are dirty with blood and therefore they are bloodguilty and WILL die at Armageddon (he should know, apparently, because I guess it will be him and not Jesus who will be judging people at Armageddon).

...

This is the same Tony who rails against parents to allow their kids to go to college (JWs are **heavily** discouraged from obtaining a higher education). This is shown in one of his JW Broadcasting videos where he blames parents for their children leaving the organization because they allowed them to have a college education.

This is the same organization that teaches it’s members from infancy to take menial jobs (if they have to have a job at all) that will barely support them so that they can spend most of their time in the field ministry (pounding on doors) and who are constantly glorifying people who quit their jobs if they interfere with meetings, Bible study time, Family Worship, field ministry, or assemblies and conventions. They also glorify those who live in poverty in order to preach full-time. We hear about these JWs over and over at meetings and conventions and assemblies and in their literature. You can ask any JW, passed or present, and they will confirm this.

...

This is the same organization that produces HIGHLY propagandized cartoons for JW children in which one of the cartoons guilts little children to put their ice cream money into the contribution boxes at the Kingdom Halls. Let that sink in. The Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses uses cartoons to guilt children into putting their allowances into the contribution boxes at their places of worship. The Kaleb and Sophia cartoon: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8pL-LnqNyw

This cult expertly uses fear and guilt to manipulate and micromanage their members into doing insane things that are not for their benefit and more importantly, are highly detrimental to their children.'

It has been many years since I stopped attending JW meetings. When I had stopped attending meetings (other than memorial meetings prior to the year 2007 or so) the religion was not nearly as bad as described in the above article. If the ex-JW quoted in the above article is correct in her claims then in many ways the religion is now horrible and embracing part of the lousy message I quoted above from the Children book. Yikes!